- MSG 160089
- origineous (68.178.76.174) - Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:03:45 +0100
ex. 1
the mechanics of a clock: the electricity or spring tension, diameter or wheels and cogs, density and weight of metals all have roles in determining the physcial function of the clock. The machine or person building the clock have a specific mechanical function in mind. But they also have superordinate function which is explicit in the design of the clock. They want someone not just to be able to read the numbers and watch the notice the hands (of the clock) motion, they want the observer to use it to maintain a schedule or monitor progress. The implicit result is coordination, punctuality (or tardiness), deadlines and timeframes. These are a result of the combinations of metals and wood and circuits. The gestalt of the mechanics and physics of the clock combined with an observer always results in something more than a mere mathmatical/physcial quantity or action, it is the manifestation of perception and intention (collective and otherwise).
Have to go. Don′t have time to read before posting. Hope it isn′t all gibrish! :-)
- MSG 160090
- i cue (189.164.56.212) - Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:11:37 +0100
mechanical time is the businees time
- MSG 160097
- Jura (195.93.21.10) - Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:44:59 +0100
No not gibrish Origineous.
Another possible way of putting this is that the outcome of a procedure ( particularly a constuctive one where something technial is eveloved) cannot always be forecast .
The constructor probably does have a use in mind although the actual recipients often apply the item in a way that had not been forecast.
The technologial advances of the twntieth century have a huge nummber of examples of this .
Teflon for Space and then for saucepans etc
- MSG 160098
- Jura (195.93.21.10) - Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:50:06 +0100
You could maybe phrase this as the evolution of technology where each stage allows an opportunity for the application to find or be applied in a new and unpredicted way.
Creater A says "I will make this to do so and so "
User B says "I wonder what I can do with this ?"
- MSG 160111
- origineous (71.34.250.182) - Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:40:47 +0100
yes. Though what I am also describing is the unforeseen or unidentified/ignored effects that result from experimenting/inventing/collaboration/designing/destruction. The gestalt effect of the invention of the tv are enormous. We not only were given an immediate source of entertainment and information, we were given the means for exacerbating our tendency to seek immediate gratification, among many other things, and I could go on and on. Philo Farnsworth had no idea what the ramification of his invention were to be. His math and science allowed him to invent the tv, and he had his own idea of what the gross result might be, but I don′t think the net result is what anyone could have imagined.
- MSG 160115
- Jura (205.188.117.202) - Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:52:46 +0100
That′s the point I was trying to make.
- MSG 160117
- Autumn (206.246.133.92) - Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:03:41 +0100
ORIGINEOUS!! I ′found′ the Satsuma′s about 4 years ago!!!! I order them every year in November.. they are the BEST oranges I have ever eaten.. I thot they were suppose to need a special mountainous climate.. I dunno.. except I must special order them from CA every year.. and they are the sweetest and juiciest gems EVER.. I am completely envious.. No one knows about them way over here..
our garden is done pretty much.. cept tomatoes and onions.. Enjoy!
- MSG 160119
- origineous (71.34.250.182) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:16:36 +0100
I guess I wasn′t seeing your acknowledgment of unintended affects/effects. It is not only person A′s intended use, and then person B′s alternate application. It is also the collateral damage/creation resulting from the original intention.
I apologize if you were recognizing that, and I am doing a poor job of interpreting your meaning.
So, the importance of gestalt recognition is the humility it demands. It serves to erode the self-important purpose of individuated progress/success and reinforces the acknowledgment of the interconnected and widely unforeseeable universe. It invigorates a greater sense of caution and awareness before acting in brash and selfish ignorance. We suffer because we arrogantly segregate ourselves from the rest of the universe. Many of us refuse to believe that our own observations alter our perception. In doing so, we undermine the inherent nature of our experience; we cannot escape our own subjectivity. We can only own it, and embrace different perspectives as the alternative versions of ourselves.
I′m starting to slip here, it′s getting late. I think I′ll quit before I descend into hokey new-agee gibrish.
Thanks Autumn!
- MSG 160123
- Jura the asteroid (205.188.117.202) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:46:47 +0100
This is getting a bit too deep for me .
I dont know about "arrogantly segregating ourselves from the rest of the Universe "
This poor guy is trying very hard to stay attached ! and not with a great deal of luck
- MSG 160125
- marger (121.45.39.104) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:24:42 +0100
Autumn, have never heard of Satsuma oranges here. We grow Washington Navels and satsuma plums which are very deep red and juicy, Sth Oz citrus crops will be very poor this year. They are grown along the River Murray which is struggling to survive. Many orchardists have taken out their trees, owing to lack of water.
(a reply to MSG 160117) - MSG 160127
- Autumn (206.246.133.92) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:36:38 +0100
if you have a chance to try the Satsuma′s I advise you do so.. they are small and squishy.. the peel falls right off.. I′m guessing they are japanese or come somewhere from asia originally.. I do not see how some deny the planet′s climate is making drastic changes. It shows in our crops.
We spent last Fri, Sat, and Sun.. having a yard sale.. Our driveway is 1/4 mile long.. the sale was at the entrance in a barn.. Itis so much work! we towed the camper down.. slept down there.. I′m B E A T. Doing laundry today..then heading up to Wisconsin for a week starting tomorrow! I′m having a busy summer.. NOT normal for me.
- MSG 160130
- Jura the sleuth (195.93.21.10) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:52:50 +0100
How odd .
ACG s(Australian Citurs growers produced 106,000 tons of Mandarins last year .
No mention of Satsumas .
- MSG 160131
- i (200.92.124.233) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:29:44 +0100
mr. originous, I see technology as a mathematical good/service with an added value which is what makes it desirable. for example : the cellular phone has addded importance to those who use them, the outside person is more technological because of that invention. cellulars are simply the most personal and accesible technology people posses!. so, mobile phones have improved the average person`s day.
- MSG 160132
- i cue (200.92.124.233) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:32:18 +0100
origineous, math is the best way to tangibilise everything and anything.
- MSG 160133
- i (200.92.124.233) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:33:06 +0100
cell phones are an extremely persuasive medium to sell technology.
- MSG 160135
- Autumn (206.246.133.92) - Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:05:11 +0100
See you all in about 10 days or so.. Happy Birthday origineous!
- MSG 160139
- origineous (71.34.250.182) - Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:21:10 +0100
Thanks! hope you have a marvelous trip!
jura, I understand how you feel, believe me.
What I am referring to is not the personal ostracism or detachment we all feel from time to time. It is the exclusion of our own agency in our experience.
marger, how are the washington navels? hope your winter is going well.
i - you are touching on the effect that I am trying to describe. People are affected by technology, even if they don′t use it directly. That is a part of the equation that often is ignored or forgotten. and yes, math is an invention to "tangibilize" things, as you say, but it does not do well as a universal application
- MSG 160140
- marger (121.45.39.104) - Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:23:53 +0100
Stone fruits, like satsuma plums, grow in the Adelaide Hills, most citrus along the Murray. It′s been a big industry Our problem is, the river starts in NSW, down thru Victoria then Sth Oz. The big growers in the far regions are just draining the water out of it in irrigation. If the Murray dries up, Sth Oz will suffer. It should have been addressed years ago and not become the political issue it is.
Orig. don′t know where the name Washington navels comes from. Perhaps they were introduced from the Washington USA area. We still import oranges from Jaffa!!
- MSG 160143
- Jura (195.93.21.10) - Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:33:08 +0100
My guess is that Satsumas which are a variety of Mandarin are sold in Oz as Manadarin .The are grown in NZ and lost and lots in the US.
Could be wrong.
Re Murray Darling .. yep.I noticed that the citrus production is down a bit .
- MSG 160145
- marger (121.45.39.104) - Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:01:25 +0100
In the paper this morning, the river banks in the Murray Darling basin are collapsing and great cracks have appeared in the surrounds. All doom and gloom !!